To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement

There has been a lot of talk in the blogosphere over the last couple of weeks about the movement and its relationship to the 2008 Presidential Primary. It was sparked by the Obama campaign's post, "Obama: What a Movement Looks Like," on two of the biggest and most active lefty political blogs, MyDD and Daily Kos. There are tons of comments, and I have read through most of them. I think this post by Jerome Armstrong sums up some of the worst of the bad thinking that is out there on the blogs with regard to this issue:
No, it's the fake self-proclaimed "movement" that exhausts me of Obama. I say fake, not because "movement for change" and "building a movement" are such vacuous slogans, but because the continual touting of having such a movement in the Obama campaign email slog is a sure-as-heck signal that there really isn' a substantive movement behind the numbers.

There was a response diary and thread posted, but it's clear to me that this is a conversation we need to keep having. Specifically, I want to address the dismissing of Obama's supporters as not "part of the movement," or the assertion that he is certainly not "a movement candidate."

When I think about "the movement" that Jerome refers to in his post, the defining characteristic for me is involvement in grass-roots politics for progressive change. Those of us who came of political age during the Dean campaign loved that experience because, for the first time, we wanted to be more involved directly in politics than we had. We feel we are now part of the movement. The same was true for the folks who got engaged through Jesse Jackson in the '80s.

A movement, on its most basic level, it is about people who are bound together in a desire for change to the status quo.

There were some comments on both of the threads at MyDD and Kos led mostly by Paul Rosenberg, that addressed the issue of defining a movement. Paul argued that movements are about taking a strong stand on issues, citing the Civil Rights, Abolition and Women's movements as examples.

But here's the thing. All of the movements Paul mentioned also involved large numbers of people deciding that the status quo wasn't going to happen any more. And in fact the large numbers of people were critical to the success of those movements.

A movement candidate in 2008 is one who is both saying the status quo isn't going to happen anymore, and has the largest number of people involved. Right now, it's Barack Obama.

As members of the current progressive movement, our job is to organize to make it bigger. Because the bigger we are, the better the chances are of us having real impact, especially in this far-right-dominated political climate we are fighting against. In organizing, the first step to asking things of people is to get them from the point of not caring to the point of being invested.

When 20,000 people come to a rally, that's 20,000 people who are willing to do something -- albeit small -- for politics. When they get there -- to those of you who insist on likening Obama to a music star -- they are not listening to Barack Obama sing '70s soul covers. They are listening to his ideas about politics. It's helping to change their own thinking about politics in way that makes them want to get more involved, and they like it. So much so that they come back to rallies, they bring their friends, they go online and create groups and have meetings and organize in their community.

And you want to know what's politically and strategically significant, for those of us who care about long-term movement-building, about the people who are drawn to Obama?

They are young: The Millennial Generation is as big as the Baby Boomers. They are decidedly more progressive than older generations, and the most diverse. They are the future of this movement.

They are diverse: America is growing more and more diverse, and this part of the electorate is the progressive voting base. We cannot win, in the short-term or the long, without engaging these populations in movement politics. In 2006, Latinos voted Democratic by 69%, and the immigration debate will only increase their Democratic affiliation. African Americans vote Democratic very reliably, at 89%. Asian Americans are an emerging part of the electorate that we need to pay attention to, and Obama does have appeal in that community right now.

Many commenters in these recent discussions are saying things like, you can't be a movement candidate unless you talk directly about netroots issues. Or that it's all about about Obama's personality, and these people who are out there working in politics, many for the first time ever, are simply "fans" or worse, "Coke consumers."

A lot of the arguments from bloggers around staying out of the Obama phenomenon come back to, "he's not really progressive." But let's be real here, and forget for a second trying to parse the word "progressive." Barack Obama is a Democrat who has roots in working on racial justice and social justice and whose broad-brush message is about fundamental change. Oh and bonus, he's an incredible speaker who can literally light a fire in a room. If people want to get involved in politics to support that, how can that possibly be a bad thing? And if something's not bad, I don't understand how anyone could argue those people are or should be separate from any progressive movement-building that is going on. In this context, I don't see how anyone can argue that Obama is not a movement candidate, whether they agree with his campaign's approach or not.

But it's this line of reasoning that kills me the most, from one commenter:

"I just hope that those who are getting involved in politics because of him will grow more mature without growing stale, cynical and calculating... like Obama's advisors seem to be."

You don't have to "just hope" that these people become long-term movement activists. You can actually go out and support them and work alongside them, and make sure that they do.

That's what I'm doing. And I can tell you, it sure feels like building the movement from where I sit.



Display:


Okay (2.00 / 4)

okay, okay, you are part of a 'movement', how's that? your candidate is a 'movement' candidate, how's that?

LOL. I can't believe Obama campaign is still pushing this dumb theme. It's starting to sound like a joke.

Obama's major weakness or problem is that lots of people start to think him as a buzz candidate with no substance and experience. That's something he needs to address. To emphasize on his 'movement' nature will only further those negative doubt about him.


by maoasada on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:12:24 PM EST

Re: Okay (none / 0)

we already know this fuckwit is a hillary troll - this individual was quick to proclaim that john edwards campaign is over. I have news for you: no matter how many paid blog trolls the clinton campaign wants to hire, it is not going to help you. No one wants your shitty neocon, calculating, power starved candidate. Once hillary falls in iowa it is over.


by jed on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it speaks sadly (none / 0)

for the Clinton campaign, that not only do they hire full-time astroturfers, but that the astroturfers themselves are so pathetically stupid.


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 3)

Did you read the post? Just curious.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:13:22 PM EST

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (1.00 / 3)

scan the first few lines and the last line. No time to read any long winded 'thesis'. I am a dumb low infoer. LOL.


by maoasada on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

That explains it.


"I don't believe in this can't do, won't do, won't even try style of politics. Yes We Can!" ~ Barack Obama
by ObamaEdwards2008 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:51:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (2.60 / 5)

Very dumb and totally uninformed, and I don't give a DAMN if you troll me, for real...

For that, I am sending them 50.00, for real.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:22:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

Yeah, I got frustrated with the scurrilous stuff I've been reading here lately and sent $100 today.  Sheesh.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:28:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

I saw what both of you wrote and wrote out a check for $900.   Then my wife slapped me around and I woke up.  :-)

Good golly, people, you let a little blog site get to you like that?      


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

Well, George, just guessing the MaoAsada is another identity of the CarolineZhang who was blogging here until lately; I don't know what happened to him/her but assume they were banned.  Can't imagine there isn't a link between the two figure skater names, but who knows?

In any case I think if you reviewed the comment and diary histories of either you might agree that he/she has done little to maintain the level of discourse here, quite the contrary.

And if we vent our frustration by opening our purses at least we are doing something proactive in the interests of our candidate.  Why did you troll rate Ice?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (1.00 / 0)

"Dumb and uninformed" is not cool to use in any event, even if a poster is not to your liking.  Way too agressive.  I am hoping that the agression can be toned down a little in the future.  

I thought the poster CarolineZhang was pretty decent.  I did not see anything ban worthy, at least from what I read.  I don't really think the posters are the same.  Certain grammar issues tip me off.  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (2.00 / 2)

That Caroline was not decent and you know it and that poster, whomever it is, is dumb and uninformed to write a message like that.  And most messages that poster writes, supporting the war, bashing in a childish way our former ex-democratic presidents, read her posts unbiasedly.  No, I don't know who the poster is but I believe a troll and would not be surprised on the other side.  Since, the other side is salivating for a Clinton win.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

I disagree.  But there should be room to disagree.  You are telling people to leave, get the hell out of here.  Let people have their opinions, even if they don't match yours.   You told me and robliberal to "get the hell out" recently, although we have been around here longer than you.   Why not just make your points and let them speak for themselves, and don't worry what another poster has to say?   The name calling is bringing down discourse, as it conveys anger.  This is just a little blog, after all.  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

grammar issues tip you off? (none / 0)

Benevolent advice for your campaign: Fire carolinezhang/ maoasada from the payroll. Her astroturfing is an obvious, incompetent embarrassment. She combines it with statements that are either stupid or very revealing, e.g., "I don't want Democrats to control Congress" in response to the point about Hillary's huge negative coattails.

And before you blow me off again, maybe you can answer that question before you succumb to your "Hah, coming from the ultimate Obamabot? Pathetic!" reflex.

Because a lot of Democrats would be very interested to know your answer.


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Still waiting, georgep. (none / 0)


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

k thx gg (none / 0)


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

George, I sure didn't read everything CZ wrote, but one comment I recall because of its nastiness and immaturity is this one, deriding liberals in the netroots as "hookers."  That is a slap in the face of most everyone participating in this blog, not to mention the blog's owners. Seems to me a commenter like that is just asking to be banned.

I also recall the "Meet Caroline Zhang" diary of CZ's (no longer available here, but it's in google cache) - while certainly not offensive, it was so out of place on this blog as to perhaps have been deserving of at least a warning.  To its credit, this "completely non-political" diary did have one funny part, though I'm not sure it was meant to be funny:  it is the wackiest non sequitur I've ever seen in a MyDD diary:

BTW, Michelle Kwan is not a liberal. Caroline Zhang for Hillary Clinton!!

I remember I just kept reading and re-reading that, trying to figure out what it meant...


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

got that right. (none / 0)

carolinezhang.


by jforshaw on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:19:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

>>>>When I think about "the movement" that Jerome refers to in his post, the defining characteristic for me is involvement in grass-roots politics for progressive change.

Jennifer - it's wonderful you're seeking to increase grassroots participation through "the movement." But the problem is - Obama is not a Progressive - he's a Centri$t.
You equate Obama with Dean - but Dean wasn't hauling in truckloads of cash from hedge funds and private equity firms and Big Insurance and Big Pharma and didn't have Big PR and marketing firms - guiding him every step of the way - including going out on their own.
Dean relied on grassroots participation and $10 donations - and probably liked
John Edwards' pie recipe for a donation of $6.10. Yummy!


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 11:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

I did not equate Obama with Dean. They are obviously very different candidates running very different campaigns. I'm saying that Obama is clearly a candidate who can be used to strengthen the movement, because he is attracting huge numbers of people who are getting excited about politics. If we just dismiss them and write them off as fans who don't know anything about being progressive, then we are wasting an incredible opportunity.

Obama is also relying on grassroots participation and small donations. He had more donations under a $100 than Edwards had in total donations last quarter, so I don't really see the facts backing up your argument.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Agree with all you say. It's just that Obama is not a Progressive.
Check his stats in Open$ecrets. While "promising" health care - he's received over $500K from private health care orgs and the Insurance industry. While "promising" to shape up K Street he's rolling in buckaroo$ from lobbyists, hedge funds, and private equity firms!!
Heck!  even Hillary's DLC has a deceptive "progressive" think tank - but there's nothing progressive about Centri$ts.
People who cast Edwards as a "failure" because he's not raising as much corporate cash as Hillary and Obama - are apparently unaware that he's not relying on funding from the corporations he's smacking down - for us!
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

According to Open Secrets all his money comes from individual donors.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summar y.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008


by Mystylplx on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Holy Moly!!  "Individual contributions" isn't limited to his $5 donors!!!!!  Obama is bundling from employees in big corporations - who can each give $2300.
Sad - that so many Obama supporters are confused about all his corporate contributors - while they sacrifice and send him $20.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

Anne,

I'm not entirely sure you understand the OpenSecrets website.  It is a very powerful tool if used correctly and can make you sound like an idiot if you don't understand it.

The compile from the FEC reports what industries individuals who donate work for and that is how that chart originates.  Claiming that he is having Corporations bundle checks from their employees sounds slightly absurd unless you happen to have real evidence.

I believe I also saw you make the claim in another post that he had tons of money from Lobbyists.  I believe you are referring to the "Lawyers and Lobbyists" subdivision which is grouped together.  Interestingly enough, his campaign does not take contributions from federally registered lobbyists.

In the future, please make a greater attempt to understand the tools you are using before attempting to make an ill-advised and easily refuted smear against another candidate.


by Obama08 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Obama's bundling has been documented in several articles. Obama doesn't seek lobbyists donations - but IS seeking donations from lobbyists families. Also documented in several articles posted here.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Obama's "bundling?" If anyone were doing any bundling it would be the corporations, and I've seen no "several articles" to back up your accusation. As for his taking money from lobbyists wives--this is not the 19th century. Honestly, women today have their own minds, their own careers, and sometimes <gasp!> they even have different political opinions from their husbands.

So if you have any evidence then show it. Otherwise please stop making these imaginary accusations.


by Mystylplx on Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 12:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

I think Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are progressives. If taking corporate and special interest contributions eliminates a person from being a progressive that eliminates even the most progressive members of Congress.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Apparently, you misunderstood my comment.
There are contributions and there are MASSIVE contributions.
Hillary and Obama are bundling "special interest" contributions - and I'm sticking with the candidate offering a pie recipe for a $6.10 donation.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Annefrank (none / 0)

Why don't you worry about your own candiate running around here getting$400 dollar haircuts and taking money from hedge funds.John Edwards isn't better then anybody else.I'll take Obama any day.You can stick with loser,John Edwards!!!


by edward on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)


http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select .asp?Ind=F09
by Jay R on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Wow!  anyone thinking Hillary is "progressive" needs to see how she's right up there with Republicans in HUGE contributions from ALL the industries. And Obama isn't far behind.


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You misrepresent the facts. (none / 0)

Federal regulations require that all contributors to campaigns provide their employment information. That is how opensecrets.org gets their sector information.  The mere fact that I am in the advertising business and donated to Obama does not mean he is getting huge contributions from the Advertising Industry. He is getting an individual contribution.  

If you want to see the difference between the candidates then you should look closely at what they have you swear to while making your contribution.  Only Barack Obama asks you to confirm that:

1. This contribution is not made from the funds of a political action committee.

2. This contribution is not made from the funds of an individual registered as a federal lobbyist or a foreign agent, or an entity that is a federally registered lobbying firm or foreign agent.

3. The funds I am donating are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.

Neither Edwards nor Clinton restricts donations from PACs or registered lobbyists.  And it's #3 which is very enlightening.  The other two campaigns make you promise the funds are from your account or controlled by you, but it does not go the extra step of  assuring they weren't funds given to you by someone else for the purpose of donating to the candidate.  This is exactly what happened in the last election with Edwards and he got into some hot water for it.  And this is exactly what some people are worried about when secretaries working at Fortress donate the maximum amount.


by Doug Dilg on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

So you're okay with the millions that Edwards has received too, right?

He's not getting as much from most sectors as Hillary and Obama, but considering his standing in national polls he's getting a more proportionate amount.  And he's not sending it back, is he?  

Is $15,000 really less odious than $30,000?  Is there some arbitrary threshhold that contributions have to reach from a given sector before you include them in your analysi$?

Pobody's nerfect.


by Jay R on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Obama is not a centrist, and your use of the "$" in place of an "s" is almost laughable. He is one of the most liberal members of the US Senate, and, actually, his Senate voting record is much more liberal than Clinton's or Edwards'.

As far as the love of money you imply with the "$", he has spent his whole life working for progressive causes (and for little pay). He could have cashed in big time by suing people or becoming a corporate lawyer (he could have walked into a ridiculous job after being president of the Harvard law review). He didn't. He's lived his life in a most admirable way, and conducted himself in office similarly.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 03:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Centri$ism is not related to conservatism, moderate, or liberalism.
Money and Power are equal opportunity compromi$ing commodities. Obama has received LOTS of corporati$t donations. Corporatists don't donate to Progressives whose policies conflict with the corporate agenda. That's why Obama Wows! crowds with inspirational speeches - not specific policies that expose the corporations keeping the working poor poor.
Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select .asp?Ind=F09

You're only kidding yourself about contributions and ideological purity, and using such a basis for declaring a candidate's ideological purity strikes me as incredibly naive.


by Jay R on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Where have you been the last few days?  Your criticism of Obama is in the dark.


No Quacks, please.
by noquacks on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 10:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Please, obviously you have not done homework on your candidate.  Obama's voting record is almost the same as Clinton.  


by lonnette33 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

Wrong. In the two years they were in the Senate together, Obama's voted much more liberally than Senator Clinton. You're just not right at all on this one. Obama's record in the Senate is far more liberal than Clinton's (or even Edwards').

National Journal Liberal Ratings:

Edwards:

Edwards's 2003 National Journal vote rating -- which gave him a liberal rating of 94.5 percent -- was based on only 40 votes from one session of Congress (due to his presidential campaign, Edwards missed 22 of the 62 Senate votes National Journal examined) and is not representative of his voting record in the Senate over the past five years, during which he has cast more than 1,000 votes. Edwards's average liberal rating for the five years he has served in the Senate (1999-2003) is 75.7 percent -- 20 points lower than his 2003 rating, which Republicans are touting. According to National Journal, in 2002, Edwards received a 63 percent rating; in 2001, he received a 68.2 percent rating; in 2000, he received an 80.8 percent rating; and in 1999, he received a 72.2 percent rating.
Source: Media Matters

So, for Edwards that's:

1999: 72.2%

  1. 80.8%
  2. 68.2%
  3. 63%
  4. 94.5%
Lifetime: 75.7% (excludes 2004, which I can't find on the internet)

Clinton:
2001-2003: 83.9%
2004: unavailable
2005: 80%
2006: 70.2%
Lifetime: 80.38%

Obama:
2005: 83%
2006: 86%.
Lifetime: 84.5%
-----------------------------

Obama vs. Clinton Liberal Rating in the 2 years they've served together (the most relevant for comparison):
Obama: 84.5%
Clinton: 75.1%

Obama's voting record is not the same as Clinton's. Not by a long shot.

In 2006 (the last year for which data is available), there were 9 senators who were more liberal than Barack Obama. By contrast, there were 10 Democrats (11 including Lieberman, who technically hadn't left the party until midway through the year) who were more conservative. Barack Obama had a better liberal rating than Russ Feingold in 2006. This man is a progressive, can we put the doubts to rest? Can we exist replacing s's with $'s in our posts about him, if only to make it easier to read? Thanks.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

I guess you weren't my target audience then. I was shooting for people who are thinking critically about movement politics. OMGZ.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:16:07 PM EST

Again, Not A Movement (3.00 / 1)

If Obama had creaed a movement or was caught up in one, you'd see it elsewhere.  You would see it in local and state elections.  You would see it in a sure fire back lash.

None of that is happening.  There is no movement.


by dpANDREWS on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:18:41 PM EST

Re: Again, Not A Movement (3.00 / 2)

Because posters like you don't want a movement.

Movement is change.  We saw movement in 2006.  People were fed up.  I hear it all the time, some people can not wait to get to the polls.  

Yes, posters like you.  I am a 45 yr old woman who is fed up.  This Democratic Party want it to be staus quo and want to tell us how to think, view things and everything else.  As this poster indicated, Dean did just that.  He brought some damn spunk to this party.  It was DEAD, totally.  He made people, believe again, that is was a possiblity of change, but we must get involved in the process.  See, change don't have to be in the streets, is can be hitting a donate button on a website for a cause or your candidate.  It can be going to meetings, many for the very first time in their lives, etc.

Many on this board don't want change.  They want the rattle of poll numbers to make people believe there can be no change.  Change is waivery and scary.  It is going against the known candidate to an unknown candidate.  But it is belief, to the end.

This country would be nothing if we did not see the Civil Rights movement.  That struggle was going on for a long time, but like you said "we didn't see it".  Why?  The Powers That Be did not want us to see it for a very long time.  Many in the north heard stories of lyching of blacks, etc.  But could not believe it until we saw it on television when the police put attack dogs and firehoses on "non-violent people" who were WALKING FOR A CHANGE.

The Democratic Party have to move forward or they are going to loose a lot of foot soliders, who are advocates for change.

Change, you don't want any change.  When you can't even look outside the box for a "possiblility", you will never change.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again, Not A Movement (none / 0)

The change Progressives seek - won't come from candidates up to their eyeballs in donations from "special interests."  That's why there's a stalemate in Congress - and nothing is happening. Follow the money...


Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again, Not A Movement (none / 0)

You would see it on a bumper sticker.   I drive a lot and I have yet to see any Obama love on the back of a vehicle.   If there were a massive movement, would it not have made it into the most obvious of settings?  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, It's A Movement (none / 0)

Well, you won't see it on the I-4 or I-75 corridors.  At least not yet- give us a little time.  I'll send you an Obama bumper sticker, if you like.  :-)

And if you see an HRC bumper sticker driving between Tampa and Orlando, then I'll eat my keyboard.

BTW, you are pushing Obama for VP.  Isn't this inconsistent with your view that Obama is not ready?  Don't you believe that the number one prerequisite for a VP is that they be able to take over immediately.  Or is it that you just want Obama to help HRC win?  


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, It's A Movement (3.00 / 1)

They want him to help her to win.  He has support and a base.  He has the attributes HRC does not, peopel like him, can attract the individuals she can not, etc.  And if all this is handled wrongly, etc., I can see him saying "thanks but no thanks", I hope nothing comes to that.  And I have not seen any bumper stickers anywhere.  And let's be honest, most folks don't put them on until the final candidates.  In both parties.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, It's A Movement (none / 0)

I like Obama.  He is a rising star in the party.  But, even though I acknowledge that there is somewhat of a movement which the Democrats would be smart to mine, he is going about the presidential race wrong, as he does not shore up Democrats first. Of course, the proof will be in the pudding, and if this strategy leads to an actual nomination, I will be proven wrong.  

He is VP material, IMO.  As I believe he is shortchanging with Democrats, we may never know how well he COULD have done in this process, if he had decided on a different strategy of going after Democrats first, then adding others to the mix.  

I have seen a couple of bumper stickers for Hillary on cars driven by women recently, btw.  In a way her appeal amongst women can be considered a movement just the same.  Of course, that is an informal type "survey," but I would imagine that a couple of bumper stickers should show up here and there (especially around USF and UT or HCC campuses) in town to convey an actual strong movement that is sweeping across the nation.  If there is to be a real movement, it is probably in its infancy right now.  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, It's A Movement (none / 0)

If Obama wanted to increase Democratic voter registrations and involvement in the party - he could have done it without running for Prez.
That's what makes his "movement" less like MLK, Jr. - and more like an Opportunist.

Hillary/Obama08
by annefrank on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 04:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, It's A Movement (none / 0)

God, if you don't get your head out of the '60s now you're going to be trapped there forever.


by Jay R on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama needs more peolpe like you (none / 0)

obama needs more peolpe like annefrank because bloggers like you talk about him all day everyday he has got 189 hits on that one blog that is great pub without spending any money thanks for all the help annefrank you have done ,keep up the good work


by edward on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 06:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If there was a movement (none / 0)

It would show up in literature.  IN music.  In poetry.  In business and in politics.  It would be denated in schools across the country.  It would be easy to see and to identify and it would be bigger than any one man.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:36:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If there was a movement (none / 0)

Is it just me or are people expecting movements to occur overnight?  His presidential campaign has been going on for... Four months and you are saying there should be songs and poetry about it already.  Let alone the fact that there is music about it already, suprisingly enough.  

How about bigger than 10,000 men and women?  Or 100,000?  Donors = 100,000.  (Changing that number after 1 week) People who have actively canvassed = 10,000.  That is much more of a people powered movement than any of the other candidates so far.  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His campaign calls it a movement (none / 0)

Thats bogus campaign speak ... and Obama is supposed to be different and not engage in such things.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 07:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

Um. His campaign is six months old. Those kinds of impacts are long-term, though I will say that Vote Hope, the independent campaign for Obama that I am working on in California, is also going to support progressive state and local candidates in California in 2008.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:23:07 PM EST

Is that The PAC (2.33 / 3)

set up in California to avoid campaign contribution limits?  

$2300 hundred for the real campaign.

What is it, $5000 limit per person for your PAC?  A PAC with one purpose, for Barack Obama to win the primary in California.

Getting a lot of big money contributions. Of course, you won't coordinate with the campaign.  Wink, wink.

New politics? No. More of the same.  Chicago-style politics.

You can buy the illusion of a movement, but it does not fool everyone.  Jerome was completely right.


by littafi on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:53:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah... (3.00 / 3)

Thanks, we needed some more unhelpful cynicism around here.

Can someone please tell me why a person or group of people starting a PAC is unhealthy for our Democracy?  And now the PAC claims to help other candidates?  What is wrong with that?  Dean started DFA after his candidacy.  Imagine if his supporters would've started something like that before he did.  Would there have been something wrong with that?


by maddogg on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that The PAC (none / 0)

You need to read what Barack Obama has said.  Hillary Clinton does take PAC monies, Barack and John Edwards do not.  Read what the statement of the website.  And please, be more informed, because this statement is on both candidates websites.  And the Obama Campaign already said they had nothing to do with this organization.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

The main thing I think of with movements is collective action to challenge and change the status quo.

I don't really see these challenges with the Obama campaign (at least not anymore than any other campaign that wants to get away from the Bush years). I don't see anything that is threatening to any existing entrenched power structures.

The civil rights movement definitely challenged the status quo. Not just by threatening to overturn Jim Crow laws through legislative action. The Montgomery bus boycott is a good example. People collectively rose together to put economic pressure on the powerful in order to enact change. It took courage and sacrifice. And it definitely threatened the status quo.

I guess you could make a case that Obama's candidacy is threatening to the lobbyist culture in DC. But I don't really see them feeling threatened right now. I don't really see his campaign supporters challenging the status quo. Mind you I don't really see this from any campaign, but then again they're not claiming their part of a larger movement.


by adamterando on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 08:28:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 6)

Never ceases to amaze me that folks deny the existence of a "movement" which is taking place right before their very eyes by any metric you care to name; campaign funding, grass-roots organisation, web activity, large crowds, increased participation of marginalised groups.  No to mention the message which is as clear as a bell.  The Obama movement has confounded the pundits and placed him in an excellent position to win the Democratic nomination.  Saying it ain't so don't make it ain't so.

If those of you who are denying Senator Obama this populist credibility are waiting for the idealised progressive "movement" that exists only in the imagination of some progressive netroots commentators you will miss the bus.  If you ain't part of the solution you are part of the problem.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:29:43 PM EST

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (1.00 / 0)

There's no evidence to your claim there's such grassroots 'movement'. A recent AP poll comes to the conclusion that Obama's strength is among higher-earning  & higher-educated elitist liberals. Hillary outpolled him among working class democrats by 4 to 1 or sth(can't recall the exact number).

If there is a movement, it's a 'elitist' movement, definitely not a real grassroots, working class 'movement'. Dean's movement was similar.

I don't know how many people contributed to Obama/Clinton/Edwards' campaigns. But those numbers, which are impressive, are still extremely tiny compared to total voting population.

Talk to me about real 'movement' when a candidate's contributor base reaches at least half a million.


by maoasada on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

Well, Obama's was over 100k in the first quarter, from memory.  Not to mention the 10k people canvassing for him this month all over the country.  Works for me.  Did you take the trouble to read the diary, after all?  It's worth it.


by Shaun Appleby on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

Here's an article to check out:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/polit ics/chi-070404obama-money,1,1955904.stor y

The key point is this:

"Overall, Obama received contributions from more than 100,000 individuals, his campaign said. Clinton received donations from about 50,000 people, while Edwards took in money from about 37,000 donors."

The number of Obama donors is expected to rise significantly this quarter. I agree with you that large numbers of donors are critical. But as it stands now, 100,000 is a lot closer to half a million than 37,000.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

As I said, to have 100,000/50,000/37,000 to contribute is impressive, but these numbers are extremely tiny considering the total voting population. The recent polling data shows although these contributors are among high income, well-educated primary voters. This is certainly not a broad based 'movement'.

Dean's contributor base was on the same scale. 100,000 is absolutely nothing. I still remember Dean's summer coast-to-coast tour. Every stop, a big number flashed across 'Dean for America' blog. People were pumped, and were in the 'movement' utopia. The truth is that movement was just a movement among elitist, high-income, high-educated liberals.

At that time, dailykos/Dean for America tried hard to claim Dean supporters were broad based. All polling data including exit polls showed exactly the opposite.


by maoasada on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:01:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (1.00 / 0)

I think in many ways the Obama campaign is a repeat of the Dean campaign. I would guess that many of the people especially online who supported Dean are now supporting Obama.

I think it has been a mistake to try to frame it as a movement. People can see through that and they also remember how poorlly it turned out for Dean when all of the massive crowds and contributors did not translate into very many votes.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Yes, and I really appreciate you looking out for Obama's best interests. Clearly that is your intent in these comments.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (2.00 / 2)

Don't come on here and negate it is a movement.  When you have NEW PEOPLE who never donated, canvassed, fundraised in their lives!!  What is wrong with you?  These are possible democratic voters, for our party!!  Don't you want them, instead of negating them?  Because if Hillary is the nominee, you surely in hell will need them.  You don't get it, and it is people like you that this party will never go any further.  I hate to type this but it is true.  You negate these people, because that is what you are doing.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

There have been "movement" candidates since the 1960's from Gene McCarthy to Howard Dean. It is not a good theme to use to get to the nomination which is what a lot of people have tried to point out to no avail.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Yup, let's all give up.  Let's keep to the cult of personality that has helped the democrats win a grand total of 3 out of the last 10 presidential elections.


by maddogg on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

the percentage of people WHO VOTE is tiny compared to the entire voting population, depressingly so. you can't measure a "movement" by that metric.

here's a comparison: would you have called Dean in 03 a movement? because Obama is kicking his ass in the # of people who come out to see him speak and I believe also in # of contributors to his campaign (can someone confirm that?)

the thing about Obamania it seems to me is that it runs counter to the ideal of the progressive movement for which partisanship is paramount. this guy is running against partisanship and seems to be attracting masses of people who a. have never been to a political rally before and b. who have never voted for a Democrat before. regardless of your feelings on Obama or whether this is a movement, those are both good things for voter engagement in general and the Democratic Party specifically.


by Todd Beeton on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

Why is partisanship paramount to a progressive movement (if we define partisanship as loyalty to some political party)? In my opinion, a movement away from partisanship is progressive--in the sense that partisan loyalty often obstructs the pursuit of genuine liberal democratic ideals.

A liberal democracy cannot ignore the fact of reasonable pluralism. More specifically, the liberal project is primarily concerned with how to join together individuals with a plurality of values under a common system of laws that serves their conflicting interests equitably without ignoring their autonomy. Partisanship in almost all instances seems contrary to good government. The putative exception to this would arise where one party is "right" on every issue and, importantly, party members are united in their believe that they're right. Well, needless to say, there is a certain kind of dangerous arrogance behind anyone's insistence that they have infallible ideals and solutions to conflicts of interests. But, unfortunately, the current political climate is one in which problems are solved through a contest of wills rather than a search for consensus and public justification. A movement away from that is--to me, anyhow--a movement worth supporting.


by DPW on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:32:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right Wing Frame (none / 0)


elitist, high-income, high-educated liberals.

That is such a stupid right-wing frame it's troll worthy.
Is there something wrong with being a liberal?
Is there something wrong with being educated?
Is there something wrong with being successful?

Instead of arguing the facts, merits, or issues You are demonizing and alienating groups of people in your own party just to try and get your favorite candidate to win the nomination.  This is exactly what the republicans do in the General.

If it is true that only us elitists are supporting Obama, then 26% of the Democratic party are apparently elitists.  It's 40% if you count Edwards' supporters as elistist as well.  Have fun winning the general election with 40% of your own party alienated.


by maddogg on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (1.00 / 0)

Clinton comes much closer to fitting the definition of a movement candidate than Obama. She is leading in all of the demographic groups that form the Democratic base.
A real movement attracts a broad demographic base not just high income, well educated people. I don't understand why the Obama campaign keeps pushing the movement theme when it is obviously not working.
BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

What are the Clinton supporters you cite doing, beyond saying they support her in a poll?

I guess you may not have read the post either, but what I am saying is that people's willingness to do something in politics beyond voting is a critical component of movement-building.

Also, I will point out that I did not say Obama was THE movement candidate. I said he was a movement candidate in the 2008 cycle. One who cannot be ignored or dismissed by people who profess to be all about movement-building.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Clinton does not claim to be a "movement" candidate. Her supporters are raising children, taking care of the elderly, serving in the military, going to school, working in factories, stores, and farms, attending union hall meetings, living their lives, and a million other everyday things.  

If Obama wants to call himself a movement candidate that is his choice there are just no facts to show he is reaching the people who would be a necessary part of a movement such as the working and middle class.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sat Jun 23, 2007 at 11:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022701030. html

"The opening stages of the campaign for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination have produced a noticeable shift in sentiment among African American voters, who little more than a month ago heavily supported Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton but now favor the candidacy of Sen. Barack Obama."

I am guessing you don't require evidence that African American people in this country are predominantly working-class.


by Jenifer Fernandez Ancona on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:06:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

You cited an article from February. Polls are showing that Clinton is doing extremely well with African American voters and has the lead in many polls. She will get as large of a share of African American voters as Obama.  


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

they're for obama in SC


by Todd Beeton on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

The lead in SC switches back and forth between Clinton and Obama. Edwards is doing poorly though.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (2.00 / 2)

You know that is wrong.  Negate yourself back to your website.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

That's from February, and it's not just a matter of African Americans.

It's a broader matter of where candidates draw their support from.

A recent Associated Press-Ipsos poll showed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York leading Obama by 33 percent to 21 percent among Democrats and those leaning toward the party, with other candidates dividing the rest. A major source of Clinton's lead was women, who favored her over the fledging Illinois senator by 2-to-1.

But Clinton also held big advantages over Obama among lower-income, less educated Democrats. That included a 4-to-1 edge among people earning less than $25,000 a year and a nearly 3-to-1 margin with people who have not attended college. With the two roughly splitting support from the best-educated, highest-earning Democrats, that spells potential trouble for Obama.

Now much of the reason that Clinton is running high right now is because lower income voters are those most likely to not be paying attention right now.  That doesn't neccesarily mean that once voters start cueing in they are going to switch to Obama.  It's entirely possible that that they will either run to other candidates (Edwards and Dodd seem like two strong contenders for the lower income vote), or that they will focus on what Clinton is saying in thematic terms about the economy instead of Iraq.

I strongly suspect that Inequality and not Iraq will be the keystone of the 2008 campaign. And the real danger I see is that we could have a primary focused on Iraq, that produces a nominee unable to articulate a message on inequality.  Inequality being something distinct from poverty in what I'm talking about.


by ManfromMiddletown on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

I somewhat agree with you. Elitist liberals are overestimating the importance of Iraq war. Sure it's important, but let's be bloodily cynical, unless there's a draft, it won't hit the nerves of most voters. Yeah, they may tell pollsters it's the most important issue, but in the end, I guess they're more worried about their gas bills.


by maoasada on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a fact for you (none / 0)

You're joking, right?  Whose sons and daughters do you suppose are dying in Iraq?  And for what?  


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 01:33:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

HRC's sole strategy is inevitability for the nomation. That's becoming more and more clear, if nothing else is. She certainly isn't talking policy. She's not talking electability. Her acolytes online aren't either. So what's left? Inevitability. I expect every poll that shows her ahead to be tauted again and again because the strategy is demoralization of her opponents.

This is an insider;s strategy.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

And a foundation of sand that it may be founded on.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

1. She is talking policies.  Much of it is picked up by the mainstream press.

2. If polls show the Democratic voter supporting someone else, there are no polls to tout.  But, since the Democratic voter seems to like Clinton better than the other candidates, almost all the polls look good for her.  It is function of the result, not the other way around.  

3. Clinton is connecting with the average Democratic voter.  The rank-and-file, the lunchpail crowd.   Call them names, if you must, consider them stupid and low-informed, but they have the exact same vote as everybody else, and they are extremely important.    That they are being handed to Clinton because Obama is chasing after a movement is unfathomable to me.   FIRST you get the members of your party on your side, THEN you go after others who may or may not show up on voting day, THEN you court moderate Republicans.   You want to win an election, not build some "movement" that disappears as soon as the election is over, right?  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:52:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 2)

No one is calling the working-class crowd names.  Most of Obama's stump speech is designed to appeal to them, his whole career has been dedicated to them.  The whole argument is just that there's a good chance that a lot of them are busy with their everyday lives and have yet to tune into the presidential race, which is not to say that when they do they will all chime in for Obama.
Edwards definitely has a message that will appeal to a lot of people.  I really doubt that people generally have realized how different a candidate Edwards is from 2004 --- it's a far stronger message and a much more progressive one.
And Obama will almost certainly grow more with black voters.
I would be more impressed with the inevitability argument if Clinton was winning by more than ten points.  She happens to be leading in a lot of demographic groups, for the moment, by an average of about ten points.  What does that really prove?  It's early.  The discussion here has illuminated any number of ways this race could change.
(By the way, do you think Obama doesn't realize that he needs to build support among working-class voters?  Did you notice who was selected for his dinner of five?  He knows what he needs to do.  And his new "Women for Obama" organization and his wife's trips around New Hampshire are all signs that he knows he needs to even the odds among women.  A movement starts small.  Let's see if it grows.)
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 05:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Obama is the one bringing in a hell of a lot of new voters.

Clinton is the traditional establishment candidate.

No candidate so far is drawing the crowds Obama is drawing. He recently had 9000 people at a church event in CT.

This is not saying he is going to win, but he is definitely a movement candidate.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

same Dean lauguage (none / 0)

Same Dean language. I believed him in first place, but am very sceptical about those 'new voters' claim.

Where were those 'voters' when we needed them desperately in 2004?


by maoasada on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: same Dean lauguage (none / 0)

Obama was not a national candidate in 2004. Clinton was and she was not much of a factor for the democratic party success in 2006.


by BDM on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: same Dean lauguage (none / 0)

He was talking about the Dean "movement" people.

And, Clinton was very instrumental in the 2006 election.  You are incorrect with your statement.  


by georgep on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 02:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: same Dean lauguage (3.00 / 1)

Did Hillary Clinton go to any swing states?  Swing districts?  Did she?  Was she on the stump for Claire McCaskill who was in a tight senate race in Missouri, was she?  Missouri is a swing state.  Was she on the stump in Virginia for Webb or Montana for Tester, very iffy states.  Was she?  She was not.  She campaigned in safe blue states, but those swing states or districts, not a peep.


"I want my voice to be read"
by icebergslim on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:52:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (none / 0)

Paris Hilton could probably draw even larger crowds but that does not mean she would win.


BlueSunbelt.Com Netroots for the Sunbelt states robwire.com My personal blog
by robliberal on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Large crowds equate to (none / 0)

large crowds, not a movement


by okamichan13 on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 09:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Jerome: On Obama and the Movement (3.00 / 1)

I think you are confusing movement candidate with establishment candidate.

Since we are obviously in the realm of opinion and conjecture here I feel free to repeat that I think Hillary is a cardboard prop for the elitist establishment which, having exhausted the usefulness of the conservative movement, seeks a new brand with which to once more swindle the people.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Jun 24, 2007 at 12:13:30 AM EST
[